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MULTIFARIOUSONE

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I ride a white horse and shoot straight
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The History in Honduras's Closet and the Truth about the Honduran Military's Attempt To Undo 5 Decades of Latin American Political Progress…….

Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:15 PM EDT
world-news, democracy, honduras, oligarchy, military-coup, military-junta, honduran-congress, honduran-supreme-court, president-manuel-zalaya
By multifariousone

The Honduran Military takes the Presidential Palace

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The Honduran military coup d'état did not happen in a vacuum. It is a continuation of the Honduran military's long protracted struggle to retain unrestrained political and economic power over their country and must be viewed through the prism of Honduras's long and colorful history of military dictatorship.

The Honduran constitution under discussion now is basically the 1982 version that gives the military almost total control over the country's political and economic affairs. It was the dictate of General Plicarpo Paz Garcia who was President of Honduras from August 7, 1978 until January 27, 1982. The military had ruled Honduras almost continuously since 1963, and Paz was the last of the generals of the ruling junta to hold Honduras's Presidency. To this day, the senior leadership of the Honduran Army, The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, basically chooses its own members from within (the Honduran congress receives a list of candidates from the leadership of the military and chooses the military leaderships new members from that list).

Honduran politics is almost impossible to understand from an American perspective. We hear the terms "constitution" and "representative democracy" and think of something quite different from what the Honduran system actually is - which is not democracy at all. At least not the way American's understand democracy.

In Honduras seven party bosses controlled by 10 or so wealthy families determine who the people may choose to vote for. This includes the country's president, the congress and all local officials. No one can participate without the patronage of the junta that rules from behind the scenes.

Honduran congressmen have no geographically determined constituency and therefore are not really answerable to any constituency other than the bosses who put them on the ballot. As the current coup leaders have pointedly made clear, only the congress, which is hand-picked by the military, can ask the Honduran electorate if it agrees with reforms; one of many Orwellian features of the Honduran military written "constitution".

While the Honduran constitution's almost four hundred articles rigidly regulate virtually every aspect of Honduran national life, notably there is no provision for changing the constitution which fails to guarantee Honduran's basic human rights.

Under Honduras's constitution, for instance, indigenous groups and African descendants have no land rights. The land that they occupy and work for their meager livings belongs to the nation (military).

Any call for redress of grievance against the government must be brought through government employed attorneys. Citizens do not have the right to privately petition their government; all complaints must only be brought through the government operated apparatus - there is no other way.

Much has been made by the coup's supporters of the fact that the Honduran Supreme Court ordered the military to proceed with the coup and that the Honduran congress was acting under a legal decree from the court to elect and install the replacement president. Its choice, Roberto Micheletti, has been a Honduran political kingpin for more than thirty years (that's a catchy Spanish surname, "Micheletti").

To put this in context; the Honduran congress, which is hand-chosen by the Honduran military, selects the members of the Honduran Supreme Court. All power is vested in one continuum.

Honduras has no tradition of (one of the cornerstones of American democracy) separation of powers. In Honduras all of the power is vested to one institution, the Honduran military leadership, "The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces".

This coup is a result of a dispute between President Zelaya and the Honduran military. It is nothing more than a barroom brawl gone badly. It's an important dispute to be sure but it is basically little more than a classic fight between two political factions vying for power.

On the one hand the Honduran military wants to hold on to an iron grip of power that they have enjoyed since the 1963 military coup that deposed the democratically-elected president, Ramón Villeda Morales and brought them to power. On the other hand there is a growing movement, led by Mr. Zelaya, trying to bring democratic reform to Honduras's corrupt political system. These two factions are at odds and there are some observers who believe that a civil war may be on the horizon.

There are several other groups as well with interest in the continuation of military dominance in Honduras. These include an inter-American rightist coalition that connects Cuban exile fanatics to rightist politicians in Latin America with neo-con's in the United States (and according to some, the CIA). These are groups who have for some time been concerned with the movement in Latin American towards socially progressive politics.

But "Mel" Zelaya is hardly a Marxist rebel. He is a wealthy land owner, the inheritor of vast ranching, logging and timber interests.

Mr. Zelaya is a member of Honduras's privileged class, a member of a traditionalist Liberal Party, and a leader who has called for reform to address inequalities in Honduras and has tried to address Honduras's crushing poverty. In spite of this the military and others of interest have attempted to paint Mr. Zelaya as a Marxist who is a puppet of Venezuela's populist president, Hugo Chavez.

Mr. Zalaya came to office thought to be a conservative and was elected by a slim majority. But during the 3 ½ years of his 4 year term in office (yes, his term has only 6 months to run) he has promoted popular reforms to increase the minimum wage, provide free lunches to Honduras's school children and he lowered the price of public transportation all of which has engendered hatred for President Zelaya from Honduras's rightists.

One protagonist group in Honduras is made up of Christian fundamentalists and the clergy who have lately been exerting extreme pressure on Honduran politics and society. When President Zelaya vetoed a law which intended to restrict women's choice in reproductive rights (choice in the use of birth control) this group became enraged and vindictive.

Another reform enacted under Mr. Zelaya's leadership is the so called "Law of Citizen's Participation" under which President Zalaya proposed that the body politic be polled to ascertain whether the citizenry wished to have a constituent assembly convened to reform the corrupt and unjust Honduran political system. This further inflamed his adversaries, the beneficiaries of the current system who began a sham legal process that resulted in the recent coup.

The Honduran military led effort to discredit Mr. Zelaya has been based upon the farcical notion that President Zelaya was acting extra-constitutionally by calling for a plebiscite which would ask the Honduran people if they wanted to convene an assembly to change the constitution to allow re-election" and that this act in itself was a violation of the Honduran constitution (this is one of the talking points that is well distributed across the internet by what seems to be the organized attempt to disseminate a very well defined and carefully crafted message that is meant to support the justification for the coup d'état).

Yet the language of the proposed plebiscite was as follows:

¿Está de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna en la cual el pueblo decida la convocatoria a una asamblea nacional constituyente? = Sí…….ó………..No.
Translation:
"Do you agree with the installation of a fourth ballot box during the 2009 general elections so that the people can decide on the calling of a national constituent assembly? Yes or no."

There is no language whatsoever regarding an election.

Further undermining the military's argument, under President Zelaya's proposal the plebiscite would have been set to take place simultaneously with the election of Mr. Zelaya's successor in November. So by the time the plebiscite took place it would be too late for Mr. Zelaya to have the constitution changed and for him run for a second term.
In President Zelaya's words "That is completely false. In Honduras we do not have reelections and I never intended to be reelected. That will be a matter for another government, another constitution and another Constituent Assembly. The Popular Consultation is a survey, just like the Gallup one does or other polling groups. It does not create rights. It has no power to impose. It is not obligatory, it's an opinion poll." (This is a quotation taken from a recent interview given by President Zelaya to Juan Gonzales of Democracy Now. The transcript of the entire interview is here: http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/9/in_rare_us_broadcast_ousted_honduran).

Rightist propaganda has been remarkably uniform in its assertion that the Honduran coup is justified by focusing on the misleading narrow issue of term limits, despite the lack of any statement by Zelaya that would support the claim that his whole intent was to stay in power. In fact President Zalaya has raised the issue of much greater constitutional reform, required reform if Honduras is to join the family of Latin American nations that are today the beneficiaries of 5 decades of Latin American political maturation.

There is much that is puzzling about what has transpired. At the time of the coup d'état President Zelaya had only seven months of his term remaining and apparently neither of the presidential candidates, one of which would have succeeded him, are leftists.

President Zelaya had no intentions of convening a national constituent assembly, he was only asking for a referendum to determine if the people supported placing a fourth ballot box in the general elections to determine if they wanted a national assembly convened. The referendum, had it been approved by the voters, would have asked a national constituent assembly to review and create a new Constitution. Creating it would have been under the authority of the National Congress, not the President.

It is clear that President Zelaya was attempting to wrest a small amount of power from the military and invest it in the private sector. The Honduran military stopped him. They would tolerate no threat to their absolute control over the Honduran polity and economy.

Instead of prosecuting Zelaya or trying to defeat him at the ballot box, masked soldiers disarmed the president's guards, kidnapped him at gunpoint and exiled him to another country. The next step was to have congress install Mr. Micheletti in his place.

Although its beneficiaries do not wish to recognize it, the present political system (which is rooted in the 1982 military decree) perpetuates corruption and privilege. For that reason alone the Honduran constitution, if Honduras wants to be a member of the world community, must be amended in a way that vests the power of self-determination with the Honduran people. Unfortunately, the Honduran military will have none of it.

The idea that at the beginning of the 21st century a political dispute in a Latin American country would still be settled by calling in the military to forcibly remove a legally sitting president is almost too absurd to comprehend.

This is the first military coup in Latin America in 25 years. In today's day and age nothing justifies the military overthrow of civilian government. Military coups are a part of a tortured Latin American history and they should be left to that history.

So, if the people of Honduras think that holding an Assembly to revise the Constitution is such a bad idea, why not just let them vote no on the referendum?

If the people of Honduras want an assembly, why not have one?

The answer is that an entrenched oligarchy, the Honduran (American trained) military leadership, cares more about retaining all of its power than it does about promoting the growth of democracy in its own country.

While Costa Rica's Oscar Arias, a Nobel Peace Prize winner tries to mediate the Honduran situation there are steps that are absolutely required if Honduras is to escape the economic and political sanctions that are sure to be the result of their unlawful coup. They are:

1. The return to office of Honduras's President Zelaya;
2. The removal from office all those who broke any law;
3. Giving President Zelaya and all of the institutions and individuals that may have acted illegally a fair trial if there are legitimate charges brought;
4. The agreement to the creation of a new Constitution that includes adequate mechanisms for its own continuing reform.

This coup has been condemned by all of Honduras's neighbors, the Organization of American States, The United Nations, the European Union, and the United States and it must be reversed if Honduras is to avoid economic, political and military sanctions. At stake is Honduras's participation in the world community of nations that respect and live by the rule of law.

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multifariousone

There is a great deal of mis-information about the Honduran military coup. It was an illegal act perpetrated to maintain strict military control over the political and economics affairs of the country.

It was not an attempt to uphold Honduras's constitution, far from it.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:20 PM EDT
Ix chelDeleted
Ix chel

The article forgets something we only have to endure sanctions for just about five months actually a little less since elections are November 29 of this year.

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:42 AM EDT
multifariousone

I see. It's interesting that you think that the penalty's imposed on Honduras will only last 5 months. That is telling. So, the ramifications from the illegal acts carried out by the Honduran military will only last 5 months. Hmmmmm...so the next Honduran election will be a fair one. Hmmmm, I guess we'll see about that.

  • 1 vote
#3.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:59 AM EDT
Ix chel

Multi, they only require democratic order to be reestablished..I guess you didn´t know that our Presidential and Congressional elections are held on November 29.

  • 1 vote
#3.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:46 AM EDT
multifariousone

If you read my article you would know what I know and think.

    #3.3 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:08 PM EDT
    Ix chelDeleted
    multifariousone

    Oh goodness, you had to showup first.

    OK, welcome. But I am the author of this article and it took me hours to research and write so, unless you have something of substance to contribute, please leave. If you continue to throw straw-man arguments up, I will no longer respond to you; my article speaks for itself and any explanation of my views regarding the Honduran coup are expressed right there.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#4 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:46 AM EDT
    Ix chel

    Multi,I am a member of this group as you are and I am LIVING the crisis. You talk about hours...well I have lived with it since more than three years ago so how about arguing the LAW instead of your opinion.

    Question...do you think that the Supreme Court rulings in the US should just be ignored if you don´t like them?

    • 3 votes
    Reply#5 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:51 AM EDT
    multifariousone

    lx chef, you really don't get it, do you.

    So here's the deal. I'm going to go through this once with you.

    I do not believe that the Honduran constitution is legitmiate.

    I believe that the coup d'teta is a criminal act.

    I would be horrified if a legitmate ruling of the United States Supreme Court were ignored.

    and that's about it.......

    • 2 votes
    Reply#6 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:09 AM EDT
    Ix chelDeleted
    Ix chel

    To give you a little more familiarity as to why it was ratified...it was voted for by the people on April 20, 1980 in order to restore democratic order after being under military control for a decade.

    35 Liberal Party members and 33 Nationalist party members participated in the writing of the Constitution as well as 3 PINU members.

    The 20th of June 1980 the Constitutional Congress convened.

    It was about removing power from the military not giving it to them. So please correct your grave error.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#8 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:32 AM EDT
    jameseg

    Thanks multifariousone for an article that presents a perspective not covered much in the mainstream media articles I have read on the subject, although I have not yet sought to verify its facts. However, your article does seem to be a bit onesided.

    Below is a copy of a message I received on my Facebook account from a friend of mine. Permission is given to copy and paste it. I have not verified its accuracy, so please feel free to correct any inaccuracies.

    I would like to know your perspective on the e-mail pasted below, which obviously presents a view much different than your article does.

    Here's a letter to a friend of mine from his friend in Honduras:

    Hi friends,

    We are all well here, thank God. Please don't believe everything you hear in the news; most are broadcasting Manuel Zelaya's version, (expresident of Honduras). The Wall Street Journal is one of the few who seems to be saying the truth. No military coup here. The president was impeached and removed from office after a special committee, appointed unanimously by Congress, declared him unfit to govern. The Secretary of Finance explained to the media that Zelaya has not submitted a national budget to Congress this year, has not given an account of his spending, has halted social programs and spent his time campaigning for an illegal and unconstitutional referendum, and has ceased to pay the salaries of teachers, doctors, nurses, for the past several months. He suddenly and forcefully doubled the minimum wage, trying to "buy" the popular vote, thereby causing several companies to close their doors, thus increasing the enormous unemployment in this country, and scaring away foreign investment. Violent crimes have surged in the past year. Several of his cabinet members resigned because they did not approve of his actions. Even congressmen from his own party warned him that they would not support him in his push for constitutional reform, in order to be able to stay in power for life (under Hugo Chavez's advice). The Association of Private Entrepreneurs of Honduras repudiated his actions. The illegal referendum that he wanted to carry out last Sunday was the straw that broke the camel's back. Congress, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Electoral Tribune, and other government entities warned him to refrain from his intentions or he would have to be arrested for violating the Constitution once again. He responded that he did not fear them and proceeded as planned. Accompanied by an armed mob, he broke into the place where the military was guarding the confiscated ballots for his referendum. When his Army General opposed this action he fired him on the spot, but the Supreme Court reinstated the general to his position. Early on Sunday morning, by a judicial order, Manuel Zelaya was arrested in his home and deported to Costa Rica, in an effort to prevent violent confrontations on the streets and needless bloodshed. Congress has since sworn in a new interim president, Roberto Micheletti, the former head of Congress. All government sectors want to guarantee to the people that there will be free, democratic, and constitutional presidential elections this coming November. Meanwhile, Hugo Chávez, from Venezuela, who supplies all the oil used in Honduras, has publicly threatened to "do whatever necessary" for Manuel Zelaya to achieve his objective of getting himself reelected into power indefinitely.

    Please share this only by copying and pasting the text. And pray for God's protection on Honduras.

    Blessings,

    Robert and family

    • 2 votes
    Reply#9 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:47 AM EDT
    Ix chel

    The one thing that I saw that was inaccurate is that Chavez doesn´t provide all the oil he provides only 20%, but it was Zelaya´s desire that he provide 100% and Congress nixed that one thank goodness and now we know why he wanted 100% to come from Chavez...he would have used the threat of no oil over the population for years to come.

    • 2 votes
    #9.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:40 AM EDT
    multifariousone

    thank you James.

    You can rely on the facts presented. I researched this thing for two days.

    It presents my view as fairly as I can present it. I am deeply opposed to the idea of a military coup.

    There is a lot of disinformation being spread around about the legality of the coup. My point of view is that a coup is always illegal and this one is no different.

    Honduras is controlled by the military. You will note that the trolls who are chasing this issue offer no facts to dispute the content of the article.

    • 1 vote
    #9.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:14 PM EDT
    jameseg

    I appreciate your comment #9.2 multifariousone replying to my comment #9. Thank you also for your research, although it would have been nice to have seen more references to sources in the article.

    I share your opposition to military coups.

    My understanding though remains that Zelaya was basically trying to be a one-person dictator and was removed by legal means. Honduras may lack what you call "separation of powers" in the sense that we have them, but they do have various branches of government.

    What right did Zelaya have to refuse to cooperate with other branches of government and to usurp their authority? Why did Zelaya not present a budget? What about allegations of his involvement in drug trafficking and other corruption? Did you read about these during your research?

    I'm not stating you are wrong, just that you have not convinced me yet.

    • 2 votes
    #9.3 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:33 PM EDT
    jameseg

    I just read further down,multifariousone and saw your comment #11 contains an additional reply to my comment #9 answering some (though not all) of the points in my comment #9.3. Sorry -- I hadn't expected to see it down there!

    • 1 vote
    #9.4 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
    multifariousone

    Ix chel:

    Look, I'm going to start to delete your comments when they are not factual, which most of what you are posting on my column is not.

    No of course you didn´t...you just make this insane accusation with no proof that it was written by the military.

    Statements like this one are unacceptable and not welcome. I cite facts. That you dispute them using ad homonym attacks is unacceptable.

    So when you use words like insane, I will delete. When you tell me that I have no proof without offering facts of your own when I've stated for instance the lineage of the constitution, I will delete you.

    When you ask negative questions that have no answers, I will delete you.

    I already told you. I spent many hours researching and writing this article and I'm not going to allow you to screw up this seed.

    If you have facts state them. If you do not have facts to state do not post. Get it?

      Reply#10 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:23 PM EDT
      multifariousone

      The Wall Street Journal is one of the few who seems to be saying the truth. No military coup here

      The writer is referring to the WSJ Editorial Page, not exactly an unbiased space. And I have to tell you, this letter you received is the rightist meme that is coming out of Honduran rightists and American neo-cons, this same dis-information is all over the place.

      The Honduran coup has been called a coup and condemned by the OAS, the UN, the EU, the US and all of Honduras's neighbors.

      Only the editorial page of the WSJ gets it right? Everyone else is wrong? The WSJ editorial page offers opinion, not fact. For fact you have to go to any other part of the WSJ (or any other publication).

      The president was impeached and removed from office after a special committee, appointed unanimously by Congress, declared him unfit to govern.

      He was kidnapped from his bed and forcibly taken to Costa Rica by the Honduran military. There is no legal justification for this in Honduran law or anyone else's law for that matter.

      The Secretary of Finance explained to the media that Zelaya has not submitted a national budget to Congress this year, has not given an account of his spending, has halted social programs and spent his time campaigning for an illegal and unconstitutional referendum, and has ceased to pay the salaries of teachers, doctors, nurses, for the past several months.

      This is the first I've heard about the Secretary of Finance but I can tell you that the Honduran teachers union refuses to return to work unless Zelaya is returned to office. In any event why is the Secretary of Finance giving this person information one on one that is not reported anywhere? And, if the writer is talking directly with a government minister then the writer is obviously highly placed and has much at stake personally.

      He suddenly and forcefully doubled the minimum wage, trying to "buy" the popular vote, thereby causing several companies to close their doors, thus increasing the enormous unemployment in this country, and scaring away foreign investment.

      I would have to guess that an increase in the minimum wage would have reasonably popular support amongst those in Honduras who need it. This argument sounds like its coming from one of the country's elite. I don't know about the Honduran economic situation but I do know that direct foreign investment is down globally due to the global recession. But really, because there is a drop off in foreign investment this is grounds for overthrowing a sitting president by a military coup? I don't think so.

      Even congressmen from his own party warned him that they would not support him in his push for constitutional reform, in order to be able to stay in power for life (under Hugo Chavez's advice).

      Please read the article. Again, this is part of the rightist meme. Latin American rightists and U.S. neo-cons are scared to death by Hugo Chavez and use him repeatedly as a bogeyman.

      The Association of Private Entrepreneurs of Honduras repudiated his actions.

      So?

      This just proves the point that it is the wealthy and privileged who back the coup. It was a right wing backed military takeover.

      The illegal referendum that he wanted to carry out last Sunday was the straw that broke the camel's back.

      The referendum is "illegal" because the 1982 military authored "constitution" makes no provision for revision. It is absolute.

      In any event Zelaya was only calling for a non-binding plebiscite to ask the people if they wanted an assembly convened. That is all. This is explained in detail in my article.

      Congress, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Electoral Tribune, and other government entities warned him to refrain from his intentions or he would have to be arrested for violating the Constitution once again.

      If he was indeed in violation of Honduran law then why wasn't he given an opportunity to face the accusations and offer a defense?

      It should also be remembered, again as I point out in the article, there is no seperation of powers as we understand that concept. The Congress and the Supreme Court are all under the dominion of the military.

      When his Army General opposed this action he fired him on the spot,

      Under our law the president would have the absolute right to fire a general who didn't follow orders. So I guess the question is, if the president doesn't have the right to fire a general in Honduras who does and from where is that power derived from?

      Early on Sunday morning, by a judicial order, Manuel Zelaya was arrested in his home and deported to Costa Rica, in an effort to prevent violent confrontations on the streets and needless bloodshed.

      This is a specious argument if there ever was one. Under what law did the military arrest the president and "deport" him? Where does the Honduran constitution provide for that?

      The bottom line is that this is a criminal military coup without basis in Honduran or any other law.

      Bloodshed? Who's blood would have been shed and who would have been responsible for the bloodshed (and please don't tell me that it would be the victims)?

      All government sectors want to guarantee to the people that there will be free, democratic, and constitutional presidential elections this coming November.

      Zelaya was not impeding that in any way.

      Hugo Chávez, from Venezuela, who supplies all the oil used in Honduras

      Our friend Ix chel says it's only 20%. Whatever the percentage that comes from Venezuela the entire world is threatening a total political and economic embargo of Honduras, Chavez has plenty of company.

      I probably don't have to point this out but the writer seems to be very worried about Hugo Chavez.......

      getting himself reelected into power indefinitely.

      straw-man argument. There is nothing to substantiate this. In fact, a close examination of the facts indicates that this is a complete falsehood.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#11 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:10 PM EDT
      jameseg

      Thanks multifariousone for your detailed response in comment #11.

      I agree the method of removing Zelaya could have been better and that may be what the international community is so upset about. But still his actions seem to have warranted his removal. And the other branches of government and the military approved it.

      The quotes from and link to a May 25 article on the website of the Council on Hemispheric Affairs below seem to tell more about the situation.

      On March 24, Zelaya upped the ante by announcing, via executive decree PCM-05-2009, that this national referendum would take place no later than June 28

      The president’s refusal to submit his project to congress or even reveal what constitutional reforms he wishes to make shroud the plan in an unhelpful air of secrecy and suspicion.

      The same article (linked to below) states what some think is the reason for Zelaya failing to provide a budget (other news sources also mention the failure to provide a budget).

      http://www.coha.org/2009/05/21st-century-socialism-comes-to-the-banana-republic/

      The quote and link below mention the drug problem.

      Though he had campaigned on a law-and-order ticket, his country has increasingly been seen as a transit point for drugs to the US, with rising criminal violence and street gangs. He has urged Washington to legalise drugs as the best solution to the problem.

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chavez-threatens-to-invade-as-honduran-army-stages-coup-1723090.html

      The quote and link below seem to indicate that the constitution is a good one by past Honduras standards.

      Throughout the constitution, however, new or changed provisions help distinguish it from previous constitutions, and some analysts consider it the most advanced constitution in Honduran history.

      (Tim Merrill, ed. Honduras: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1995.

      http://countrystudies.us/honduras/84.htm)

      Your point about the President having the right to remove a military official is certainly valid, but if one is removed for unjust cause (refusing to obey an illegal order), the other branches of government have the right to overrule the order.

      A recent poll seems to indicate Hondurans oppose Zelaya than support him.

      Honduran media on Thursday published a poll showing that 41 percent of Hondurans thought that Zelaya's ouster was justified. The CID-Gallup poll carried out between June 30 and July 4 found 28 percent of those interviewed opposed the coup.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE56424C20090709?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

      The Associated Press reported different poll results than Reuters, and the source below states the Associated Press misreported the poll results.

      http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/07/ap-misreports-cid-gallup-poll-on.html

      http://www.cidgallup.com/Ingles/Index.aspx (I did not see the poll on this CID Gallup site, but it may be accessible here.)

      I realize that all news media is subject to error, and I welcome any insights you have that the sources I cited are inaccurate.

      • 5 votes
      #11.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:25 PM EDT
      Ix chel

      My comments are factual and based on law and you have now been reported for violating terms here and for your article.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#12 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:30 PM EDT
      multifariousone

      My comments are factual and based on law and you have now been reported for violating terms here and for your article.

      Violated terms? Reported for my article? I guess freedom of expression is hard for some people to understand.....report on.

        #12.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:12 PM EDT
        Ix chelDeleted
        Andy-827327

        More information on the Honduran "non-coup"

        Honduras' non-coup

        Under the country's Constitution, the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya was legal.

        Honduras, the tiny Central American nation, had a change of leaders on June 28. The country's military arrested President Manuel Zelaya -- in his pajamas, he says -- and put him on a plane bound for Costa Rica. A new president, Roberto Micheletti, was appointed. Led by Cuba and Venezuela (Sudan and North Korea were not immediately available), the international community swiftly condemned this "coup."

        Something clearly has gone awry with the rule of law in Honduras -- but it is not necessarily what you think. Begin with Zelaya's arrest. The Supreme Court of Honduras, as it turns out, had ordered the military to arrest Zelaya two days earlier. A second order (issued on the same day) authorized the military to enter Zelaya's home to execute the arrest. These orders were issued at the urgent request of the country's attorney general. All the relevant legal documents can be accessed (in Spanish) on the Supreme Court's website. They make for interesting reading.
        What you'll learn is that the Honduran Constitution may be amended in any way except three. No amendment can ever change (1) the country's borders, (2) the rules that limit a president to a single four-year term and (3) the requirement that presidential administrations must "succeed one another" in a "republican form of government."

        In addition, Article 239 specifically states that any president who so much as proposes the permissibility of reelection "shall cease forthwith" in his duties, and Article 4 provides that any "infraction" of the succession rules constitutes treason. The rules are so tight because these are terribly serious issues for Honduras, which lived under decades of military rule.

        http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-estrada10-2009jul10,0,1570598.story

        • 5 votes
        Reply#13 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
        Cactusflower18

        Well done, Andy. I think we ought to keep our noses and mouths out of Honduras' business unless it is to support the people. They seem to want freedom not Zelaya. It sounds legal from the reliable sources. Moreover, anytime someone like Chavez is 'for' someone you know it ain't good for the people or freedom.

        • 4 votes
        #13.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:39 PM EDT
        Andy-827327

        Thanks CF...and I agree big time, we don't need to be siding with the dictator Chavez.

        • 4 votes
        #13.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:59 PM EDT
        multifariousone

        We should probably be wary of anyone who uses sarcasm in the way this guy did, indeed,

        Led by Cuba and Venezuela (Sudan and North Korea were not immediately available), the international community swiftly condemned this "coup."

        "Led by Cuba and Venezuela"..... the coup has been condemded by the U.N., the OAS, the E.U., the U.S. and all of Honduras's neighbors. Condemnation has come from every corner of the globe.

        The rules are so tight because these are terribly serious issues for Honduras, which lived under decades of military rule.

        In Honduras the military chooses all candidates for all offices. It is still under military rule.

        • 1 vote
        #13.3 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:18 PM EDT
        Andy-827327

        We should probably be wary of anyone who uses sarcasm in the way this guy did, indeed,

        How about Democrat members of Congress Multi?

        Honduras government gains ground with Congress

        By Kevin Bogardus and Jordy Yager

        There are tentative signs from Democrats in Congress of support for the forces that removed Honduras President Manuel Zelaya from power at the end of June

        Rep. Eliot Engel (D-N.Y.), chairman of a key House subcommittee with jurisdiction over Honduras, roundly criticized both factions at a Friday hearing. But he also stopped short of calling for Zelaya’s immediate reinstatement, which he’d done in previous statements.

        While Engel said the United States and its allies in the Western Hemisphere could not tolerate what appeared to be a military coup, he said Zelaya had ignored his country’s own Supreme Court, legislature and even members of his political party when he sought to change the constitution by seeking a second term as president

        http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/new-honduras-government-gains-ground-with-congress-2009-07-11.html

        • 2 votes
        #13.4 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:52 PM EDT
        Arizona1950

        multifariousone ... with all due respect with all that is going on in our own country and all the things that we need to address and/or fix, why should I really care about what's going on in Hondurus or want to become involved in their problems.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#14 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:53 PM EDT
        multifariousone

        Care if you want, don't care if you don't want. Commenting on world affairs is different than getting involved in another country's problems.

        Honduras receives massive amounts of U.S. aid. In my opinion if they take our money then they are obligated to listen to our criticism too.

        • 1 vote
        #14.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:21 PM EDT
        Cactusflower18

        Hmmmm.....always strings attached to the $$.

        In Honduras the military chooses all candidates for all offices. It is still under military rule.

        If that is true, then how did Zelaya expect to be a canidate after firing a militarty leader?

        • 2 votes
        #14.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:31 PM EDT
        Arizona1950

        Now that it something I didn't know ... why is Hondorus receiving massive amounts of American tax dollars? I don't remember voting on the issue of supporting another government especially one that doesn't support free elections. So this is more money going out of our country when we so desperately need it here. Why???

        On second thought maybe I will take a closer look as they seem to be acting exactly like our own government. You know the one we have, the one that is suppose to be about the people, the one who is suppose to be based upon a Constitution that serves the people not special interests.

        • 1 vote
        #14.3 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:48 PM EDT
        Ix chel

        Multi where is your PROOF that the military chooses the leaders? According to what just occurred a few months ago we had PRIMARIES where the public selected the candidates not the military. You must be very poorly informed...Pepe Lobo and Elvin Santos are both civilians and were elected by the people as the candidates for the presidential election so was the third party candidates in the running.

        All of our ´diputados´Congress is elected as well by the people and the candidates are not selected by the military that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard yet.

        • 4 votes
        #14.4 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:49 PM EDT
        Cactusflower18

        Arizona: you would not believe how much of our money goes out of the country. Check out the bills they are working on and the appropriations and to which countries.

        Disgusting.

        • 1 vote
        #14.5 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:09 PM EDT
        Arizona1950

        Cactusflower ... what little I do know is making me not only ill but very angry.

          #14.6 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:50 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          Honduras: Military Dictatorship Never Again!

          Masked soldiers of the Honduran army forcibly entered the residence of President Zelaya on Sunday morning, kidnapping him and forcing him to leave the country (he is currently in Costa Rica). The military then declared that Zelaya has resigned his post, and proceeded to assign a new president, with the rubber stamp of the „congress."

          This newest in the already long and painful list of Latin American military coups comes as Hondurans were getting ready to participate in a referendum which would open the way for a constitutional change allowing presidents to be elected for more than one term, which is the current limit. Zelaya was seeking this change, in order to use a second term to continue to push ahead with progressive and social reforms.
          Clearly, a left of center President and his program of reforms is not quite the road that will lead to the destruction of state and capitalism. However, much as is the case with the current process in Venezuela, or even the case of Cuba, we cannot help but feel identified with the plight of the many in this country with over 70% of its population living in poverty who put their hopes into this path to at least a better life in Honduras, thus breaking decades of dominance on behalf of military juntas and right-wing elites.
          We in Latin America know full well what military dictatorship means and what dangers this implies for those engaged in social struggles. We also have learned very well through decades of experience who benefits from these dictatorships, and who lends the support to make them possible. For this reason, we should extend the working class of Honduras our total solidarity in this new fight and hope that, just as was the case in Venezuela a few years ago, this newest military uprising is quickly isolated and defeated.

          -El Pueblo Armado, Jamas Sera Explotado
          -Milicos al Paredon
          -Por la Revolucion, La Unidad Latinoamericana, y el Comunismo Libertario

          • 1 vote
          #14.7 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:47 AM EDT
          Arizona1950

          multi ... is there a flip side to this? It seems Hondurus has/had a President who refused to step down, so to speak, but is pushing forward to reinstate himself by extending the term of his presidency. There is a Congress which seems to willingly allow the military to remove him and also will be assigning a new President. Now what it doesn't say is if this new President is the current Vice President or Secretary of State? Or will it be a puppet President until the election by the people of a new President at the time when said election is held? Would like to hear more please.

          Question ... what would your take be if President Obama sought to extend his Presidency in the same way? Would you think it better that Congress allowed the people to forceable remove him or the military? Just a thought.

          • 1 vote
          #14.8 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
          jameseg

          Thanks multifariousone for the link to the blog in your comment #14.7. But, the blog only appears to be an opinion piece that is not supported by links to reputable news sources. I hope your article itself is based on more reputable sources.

          The only source I saw cited in your article was the one that quoted Manuel Zelaya. And, his personal quotes certainly can be expected to be biased.

          • 2 votes
          #14.9 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
          Ix chel

          Arizona, he is the speaker of the House and he is concidered an interim president. Our elections will be held in November on the 29th.

          • 2 votes
          #14.10 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:53 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          Thanks multifariousone for the link to the blog in your comment #14.7. But, the blog only appears to be an opinion piece that is not supported by links to reputable news sources. I hope your article itself is based on more reputable sources.

          The only source I saw cited in your article was the one that quoted Manuel Zelaya. And, his personal quotes certainly can be expected to be biased.

          There seems to be a meme here......

          My article stands on its own. Rebuttal is welcome.

          • 1 vote
          #14.11 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:50 PM EDT
          Andy-827327

          Multi-your article is at best, an opinion piece with no unbiased citations, you have been consistently rebutted in multiple post in multiple threads, some of the people posting live in Honduras, yet you still continue with tortured explanations in a desperate attempt to keep from admitting you've lost the debate...it's not working.

          • 3 votes
          #14.12 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:03 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          Arizona exactly she wants to seem to dictate to myself who lives here what is factual or not and she has never even been here much less know what is factual or not...she seems to have her facts a bit twisted since we do have the same three branches of government that the US does.

          Executive (President) serves one four year term period. Article 239

          Legislative (Congress)...elected by the people in each of the 18 districts...for instance Pepe Lobo was President of the Congress for quite a while he is a rep from Olancho.

          Judicial (Supreme Court) The supreme Court is made up of 15 judges.

          article 1 of the Constitution of the Republic of Honduras

          ARTICULO 1.- Honduras es un Estado de derecho, soberano, constituido como república libre, democrática e independiente para asegurar a sus habitantes el goce de la justicia, la libertad, la cultura y el bienestar económico y social.

          Article 1 Honduras is a State of rights, sovereign, constituted as a republic, free, democratic, and independent to assure its habitants enjoy justice, liberty, culture, and economic and social protection.

          ARTICULO 4.- La forma de gobierno es republicana, democrática y representativa. Se ejerce por tres poderes: Legislativo, Ejecutivo y Judicial, complementarios e independientes y sin relaciones de subordinación.

          Article 4 The form of government si republic, democratic, and representative. It is exercised by three powers: Legislative, Executive, and Judicia, complimentary and independent and without subordinate relationship(means they are equal)

          • 4 votes
          Reply#15 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:42 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          Read the article.

          • 1 vote
          #15.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:22 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          I read it and it is filled with lies you have not backed up Multi...that is precisely what I am asking you do...provide proof to back up your accusations but you are refusing to do that.

          • 4 votes
          #15.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:19 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          I am still waiting for Multi´s proof that the Honduran government is controlled by the military it seems blatantly clear that Micheletti nor any of the Congress are military yet she blindly insists that she knows everything about a country over what she claims is two days of research in opposition to people who live here and she has never bothered to even figure out where we are on the map much less come here...then she falls into violation of COH by calling people who disagree with her names.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#16 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:45 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          are you getting a kick out calling me "she"? Does that carry some meaning for you?

          am still waiting for Multi´s proof that the Honduran government is controlled by the military

          It is in the article. Why don't you read it?

          she has never bothered to even figure out where we are on the map much less come here

          Please stop with the childishness. I don't want to have to delete everything you post here but I will if you don't stick to the argument.

          READ THE ARTICLE.

          • 1 vote
          #16.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:26 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          I don´t know or CARE what your sex is. No there is no proof just your accusation..give me written Honduran law that shows this since I voted in the primary for Pepe Lobo and I am not a military member.

          You are the one being childish and there is nothing wrong with my post nor is it against the rules you are threatening to delete me...well go ahead and you will get reported and Newsvine already told me you will get your account cancelled if you delete people´s posts with no cause.

          • 3 votes
          #16.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:53 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          I'm happy to offer sources for any question that you might have...

          • 2 votes
          Reply#17 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:03 PM EDT
          jsbach

          Hi multifarious.

          Okay, here is my problem with your article. Number one, if you are proposing this article as fact, the links of your sources should be provided in your article. If you actually went to Honduras, then you would obviously state that as fact and show how it is a fact.

          Because you lay claim to this as being true, it still has to be shown as fact. What are your sources? From whom did you get this information? Now, I'm not accusing you of any wrong doing but some could perceive this as you taking the words of other articles and making them your own. That's a big no-no. Now, did you do research on the government of Honduras? If so, you should probably show that as well.

          How do I know that what you write is true? Because you say it is? It doesn't work that way. It would have been better for you to show links or seed an article and then add your own opinion to the situation in Honduras.

          Do you get my meaning? I sometimes have trouble conveying sincerity in the comments section so know that I am not attacking. You've only been here a short time but you must know that you have to show how this article is "fact" rather than "other" or "opinion." I may be wrong, but I don't know if it should be under the "news" heading.

          Plus, just because someone disagrees with you is not a violation of the COH. The violation occurs when someone comments and you either delete or make threats to delete their opinions and/or facts.

          Hope I could help a little.

          js

          • 4 votes
          Reply#18 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:13 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          Why? I offer the piece as my opinion based upon what I've learned from my research. I did not claim this to be a scholarly article submitted for peer review. I will be happy to change it to news opinion. No problem.

          Watch for another article in which I will cite sources....

          • 1 vote
          #18.1 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:24 PM EDT
          jsbach

          Why? I offer the piece as my opinion based upon what I've learned from my research.

          Well, you have it as opinion now but it was originally shown as news "event."

          Watch for another article in which I will cite sources....

          Cool! I look forward to it.

          • 2 votes
          #18.2 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:32 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          Multi, all through this you have argued it is fact. We have all asked you to provide proof that it is fact...if you don´t know it is fact..then why not just admit that you don´t know if it is fact or not and that it is just your opinion that you cannot back up?

          • 4 votes
          #18.3 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:58 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          I stand by my article.

          You know Ix chel you have been dogging me for days. You call me a liar. You tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about but you do not present facts of any kind. Not once have you provided a link to anything, not once. So if you have some facts present them.

          My article is the result of my research and I stand on it.The article represents the facts as I understand them. Instead of wasting your time using invectives and ad homonym argument why don't your write an article that we might comment on.....how about it?You've got all the facts, present them.

          And leave me alone please. You are like a broken record, repeating the same things over and over and over again.

          The OAS, the UN, the EU, the US and now NAM have all condemned this coup d'etat. Can you name any country or organization that has come out in support of the coup?

          • 1 vote
          #18.4 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:11 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          Multi,I have I presented the constitution and your answer was you don´t concider it legitimate..well sorry but it is the law we live by and in that constitution it tells you clearly that the people elect the candidates...furthermore we had primaries...and the people voted...so how is that the military selecting our candidates? Can you answer that question? I told you clearly I voted for Pepe as the Nationalist candidate and I had a choice of four who were in the running. They get on the ballot via signatures from the PUBLIC not from the miltiary. Tell me something Multi since you believe in free speech why are you deleting posts that contain the facts you didn´t like? I responded to them and sent them to Newsvine showing them that there was no violation in pointing out the articles of the constitution..you not liking the constitution does not make it law since you are NOT Honduran and have no say in what our laws are. You need to correct your accusation that the military choses the president and our Congress and the candidates because it is defamation and it is a lie. I have already given you that now go riff through the posts that you deleted that weren´t violations since it is a violation for you to delete them in the first place..but your problem is you do not believe in freedom of speech unless it is your freedom alone...a dissenting opinion from yours offends you instead of arguing the point you try to make me go away and I won´t.

          • 2 votes
          #18.5 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:24 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          .so how is that the military selecting our candidates? Can you answer that question?

          Who must give approval before any name appears on any ballot?

          .so how is that the military selecting our candidates? Can you answer that question?

          I am only deleting comments that contain no facts.

          since you are NOT Honduran and have no say in what our laws are

          You are right. I'm an American. One of the Americans that pays taxes that support Honduras. I have every right to express my opinion about events in Honduras when my country contributes to Honduras's support.

          I also have every right to support my country cutting Honduras's aid which the US and most of the rest of the world is doing.

          As I've said; if Honduras wants to be a banana republic that is Honduras's business. But stability in the region is also America's business as long as we are supplying money and military support to Honduras.

          but your problem is you do not believe in freedom of speech unless it is your freedom alone...a dissenting opinion from yours offends you instead of arguing the point you try to make me go away and I won´t.

          If you continue to make these kinds of ad homonym attacks they will be deleted.

          Now I challenged you to write an article and present the facts as you see them....why won't you do that?

          • 1 vote
          #18.6 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
          jsbach

          lx chel,

          I'm sure that when Tyler gets back tomorrow, Monday, he will make a fair assessment.

          Multi,

          lx chel has done nothing wrong in showing opposing opinions on this issue. In your comment to lx chel, you state that your article is based on facts, not opinion, so he/she is asking for you to properly identify your sources on these facts.

          • 1 vote
          #18.7 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:54 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          Thanks JsBach

          • 2 votes
          #18.8 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:38 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          To get your name on the primary ballot you have to get enough signatures Multi. When you have those signatures from voters you are placed in the primaries....In the primaries which we voted in already the candidates became Porfirio Lobo and Elvin Santos..neither are military as it is prohibited by law that active military serve as president.

          • 3 votes
          #18.9 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:58 PM EDT
          multifariousone

          JS Bach.

          I warned this person in advance about what kind of comments of theirs would be deleted. I warned them twice.

          Opposing opinion and especially refutation of facts is always welcome, Taunts, name calling, etc. is not.

          • 1 vote
          #18.10 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:56 PM EDT
          Ix chel

          There was no name calling I still have those posts and can repost them..not a single one of them called you a name but you did call me names and insult me on several occasions...taunts? really giving you the text of the constitution is a taunt?

          • 2 votes
          #18.11 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:10 AM EDT
          Ix chel

          Articles 272 to 293 of the Honduran constitution speak about the responsibility of military and no where does it say that they pick the candidates for office.

          It does say that during war time all capable citizens are required by law to become soldiers and defend the country and to not do so is a violation that will cost you your citizenship and is treason.

          • 3 votes
          Reply#19 - Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:22 PM EDT
          Arizona1950

          lx chel ... that is interesting! So if Hondorus makes a decision to go to war all the capable citizens are required by law to become soldiers. I would love to hear more about this ... I am interpreting this to mean if Hondurus is attacked or if another country tries to occupy it. Otherwise, you would have the military directing the people, so to speak, to go to war regardless if they believe in its legitimacy and whether they should or not get involved. If this is the case, than Hondurus has is a draft, like we use to have here is my take on it.

          • 2 votes
          #19.1 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 8:30 AM EDT
          Ix chel

          It is if we are attacked. There is another country that has that same law...Switzerland.

          Here is what it says

          Article 276- Military service is obligatory for all male citizens between 18-30 years of age and a special law regulates its function.

          In case of international war all Hondurans capable of lending their service are soldiers without any discrimination.

          ARTICULO 276.- El servicio militar es obligatorio para los ciudadanos entre los 18 y 30 años de edad. Una ley especial regulará su funcionamiento.

          En caso de guerra internacional, son soldados todos los hondureños capases de prestar servicios, sin discriminación alguna.

          • 2 votes
          #19.2 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
          Arizona1950

          Thank you. Another question, if I may, would Hondurus go into another country if there were say a train bombing or some other form of terrorist attack in the fashion of a hit and run that are so good at?

            #19.3 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:09 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            That who is so good at? Honduras hasn´t been in a war since 1969 nor have they had any active terrorist groups however I did see FMLN supporting Manuel Zelaya but they were inside the country..no we wouldn´t go into another countries territory to capture them though we would work with the authorities in that country to do it.

            • 2 votes
            #19.4 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:48 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            Fuel for a Coup
            The Perils of Latin America's Oversized Militaries

            This coup d'état demonstrates, once more, that the combination of powerful militaries and fragile democracies creates a terrible risk. It demonstrates, once more, that until we improve this balance, we will always leave open the door to those who would obtain power through force -- whether a little or a great deal, approved by the majority or only by a few. Furthermore, it shows what happens when our governments divert to their militaries resources that could be used to strengthen their democratic institutions, to build a culture of respect for human rights and to increase their levels of human development. Such foolish choices ensure that a nation's democracy is little more than an empty shell, or a meaningless speech.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#20 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:49 AM EDT
            jameseg

            I do not consider this a true military coup since the other branches of the government supported it, and the civilian figure who is next in the line of succession took over.

            However, I do think the method of removal of Zelaya could potentially set a bad precedent for other countries.

            I share Oscar Arias's desire to devote more resources to humanitarian purposes and less to military forces.

            • 2 votes
            #20.1 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:40 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            I do not consider this a true military coup

            Most of the world disagrees with you and has condemned it as an unlawful military coup d'etat including the UN, the EU, the OAS, NAM, the U.S. and all of Honduras's neighbors.

            • 2 votes
            #20.2 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:06 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            And most all of them got no facts...you do know that the OAS really doesn´t have any credibility in determining what a democratic state is when they permit folks like Cuba and Venezuela to be honored members of their group...the same reason that the US is in the process of sanctioning them right now and withdrawing their support for Insulza as president in the next reelection period. How can you demand of Honduras what you don´t demand of Cuba just two weeks earlier?

            That in and of itself seriously calls into question their credibility..not to mention Nicaragua and the abuses there that have not been investigated including election fraud.

            • 3 votes
            #20.3 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:15 AM EDT
            Ix chel

            Multi if we don´t have oversized militaries we get run over by countries that are bigger than us and become subject to them. For instance Russia was pushing to make all of Latin America communist, now I know you think it is a good thing, but 100,000 people died in those wars and we didn´t want communism and having those large militaries prevented it.

            No one should be subjected to attack just because they are smaller...you probably believe that the US shouldn´t have a military either..

            Oh and you made the accusation that your country, Mexico, doesn´t use the military on national land...since you live in Mexico that is the country I assume naturally that you are referring to...I watched a live operation last night in Michoacan...they were using the military on national land.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#21 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:35 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            The US Congress no longer believes it is a coup.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#22 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:36 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            The US Congress no longer believes it is a coup

            Now how did you arrive at that conclusion?

            • 1 vote
            #22.1 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:49 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            Multi if we don´t have oversized militaries we get run over by countries that are bigger than us and become subject to them. For instance Russia was pushing to make all of Latin America communist, now I know you think it is a good thing, but 100,000 people died in those wars and we didn´t want communism and having those large militaries prevented it.

            No one should be subjected to attack just because they are smaller...you probably believe that the US shouldn´t have a military either..

            I can find no reference to Honduras being attacked by another country since the 1969 "Football War" with El Salvador.

            Fuel for a Coup
            The Perils of Latin America's Oversized Militaries

            This is a statement by President Oscar Arias, the two-term President of Costa Rica who is a Nobel Peace Prize winner and the person that has been asked to mediate the current Honduran political crisis. These are his opinions so if you disagree with them I'd suggest that you write to him and give him your version of Latin American history directly.

            • 1 vote
            #22.2 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:56 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            I watched the discussion with the Honduran commission go watch it and you will see the comments about it and as well others have informed you of it, but you apparently ignored them.

            • 1 vote
            #22.3 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:59 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            Multi, I wrote him about this situation...and I can tell you right now he has no military whatsoever and if he were to be jumped on by Venezuela he would be owned by Venezuela and Chavez has made the threat. You know what he also said...he said that Venezuela and the US needed to butt out...that no one can understand the situation like Central Americans...that this is a Central American problem. That Hondurans have to solve it not anyone else...he was directly telling folks like you that you do not understand the problem.

            • 1 vote
            #22.4 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:01 PM EDT
            Andy-827327

            The US Congress no longer believes it is a coup

            Now how did you arrive at that conclusion?

            Read post 13.4...thats how.

            • 1 vote
            #22.5 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:03 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            Multi, I wrote him about this situation..

            I'm sure that he will find your position fascinating....

            were to be jumped on by Venezuela

            You are awfully frightened by Chavez aren't you? I do not think that Oscar Arias is afraid of him though.....

            and Chavez has made the threat.

            By the way, I've never seen any reference to any threat that Chavez or anyone else has made against Costa Rica. Can you offer any reference of that? I'd like to read up on it more.....

            • 1 vote
            #22.6 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
            multifariousone

            You said:

            The US Congress no longer believes it is a coup

            the article says:

            tentative signs

            These are two entirely different things and typical of the kind of neo-con rightist spin tactics that you continually employ.

            • 1 vote
            #22.7 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:16 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            Multi, you complain about name calling and taunting and that is precisely what you are doing...why do you not apply the same standards to yourself that you want to seem to impose to the extreme on everyone else?

            Neocon rightest tactics? Get real...Micheletti and the entire congress is LIBERAL. To make it more clear you don´t know what party any of us belong to or what our positions are on US politics..and you do not understand Honduran politics or what is right or what is left here. Did you know that the right to life is protected by the Honduran constitution...to the extreme that the death penalty and abortion are prohibited by the constitution except to save the life of the mother. Self defense is also an absolute protected right. These are things voted in by Liberal Congress.

            • 3 votes
            #22.8 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:40 AM EDT
            Ix chel

            Arizona, the aid coming to Honduras amounted to about 200million dollars...a drop in the bucket compared to most countries. Most of the money sent here is through trade agreements and it is used in trade not as aid, but in purchases of items such as canteloupe, coffee, bananas, pineapple, gold, silver, textile materials, and so forth.

            The 200 million isn´t just for Honduras either. Palmerola is a US military installlation for which is used by DEA agents and US soldiers as well as Honduran soldiers. Yes, US soldiers do exercises with Honduran soldiers in that base. DEA gets the biggest chunk of that change to fight the drug war...something that the Zelaya family was trying to impede.

            He wanted to legalize drugs about a year ago but got a very negative reaction from the public and backed off the idea. There are records and pictures of a vacation that Zelaya´s son, who drives a Ferarri btw, took with Joaquin Chapo Guzman. Even DEA agents have indicated that Guzman is hiding out in Honduras. There is a huge reward out for him for drug trafficking...and the most condemning of all...before Zelaya was removed up to 3 planes from Venezuela would land a night with drugs in them...I have pictures of the planes so it isn´t just innuendo...and since Zelaya was removed not a single plane from Venezuela has landed with drugs in this territory.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#23 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:57 PM EDT
            Arizona1950

            ix chel ... Thank you again for going beyond my expectations in answering my questions. Nothing is more impowering than education through experience and truth of which you seem to have an abundance both. I love to learn and look forward to more of your posts.

            • 1 vote
            #23.1 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:27 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            Thank you Arizona by your compliments. It is vitally important that the DEA remain active in the are to the direct benefit of the US of course and I believe also the benefit of Mexico. I think the reasons for that is obvious. Yes, 200 million seems like a lot, but it isn´t when it is preventing drug cartels from taking hold in the region and from keeping drugs out of the US. I will have to go back and look up how many siezures have happened this year and lead you to that. Regardless of where one stands on the drug war it is clear that drug cartels terrorize citizens and should be dealt with. We have been allies with the US for more than one hundred years and the Honduran people for the most part have thought highly of the US and the people there. US citizens enjoy a standard of police protection that is higher than the citizens of Honduras when they live or vacation here.

            My husband when he did his obligatory military service he worked with US troops here and he got out in the early 90´s.

            • 2 votes
            #23.2 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:03 PM EDT
            Arizona1950

            lx Chel ... hearing the figures of how much our states are in arrears here, you are correct $200 mil is not a lot. I do hope we in this country can get our act together such as has been done in Honduras. As a single woman and looked upon as a senior citizen by some, I will admit the US is becoming a little scarey. I'm not sure what direction this country is going in as our police have become more brutal and our politicians more greedy. Keep up the good work and I do look forward to being educated further.

            • 1 vote
            #23.3 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:32 PM EDT
            Ix chel

            and Multi we haven´t been attacked since 1969 precisely because we have a large military...Nicaragua has made the threat and tried several times but was pushed back as was the overflowing civil war in El Salvador during the 80´s. Violence came across the borders intentionally with the intent of involving Honduras in the conflict we just pushed them back across the borders or arrested them for violating border lines.

            • 2 votes
            Reply#24 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:07 PM EDT
            Dsent

            Multifariousone,

            A very well written article sir. And you have my condolences for having to respond to many inane comments.

            That said I think the US response has been tepid at best. As you pointed out in your comments section the US gives huge amounts of aid to the Honduran military. We know that the coup plotters were trained at the School of the Americas aka; "Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation". Graduates of this school return to their respective countries but not with out strong ties to US Intel. The US influence within the Honduran military can not be exaggerated. They live by the US hand. To think that elements with in the military attempted this coup without some knowledge of how Washington would react is highly suspect.

            Now I would agree that the Honduran democracy is a bit of a joke, but for that matter I also think the US democracy is a bit of a joke.

            Respect

              Reply#25 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:53 PM EDT
              multifariousone

              The U.S. was negotiating with them for weeks and tried to persuade them not to do it. Finally the Honduran military just stopped responding to us and launched their coup.

              • 2 votes
              #25.1 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:11 PM EDT
              Ix chel

              Multi, source please? The US didn´t know anything about it before it happened so how could they have negotiated for weeks an arrest warrant that wasn´t received or signed until June 26? Just two days before it occurred...even the military didn´t know about it...so what would they negotiate...furthermore, the US would never negotiate with a foreign military they negotiate with the government and that would either be the Secretary of State or Congress...

              • 2 votes
              #25.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:24 AM EDT
              multifariousone

              It is really difficult for me to understand how anyone could support the violent overthrow of a sitting president, especially one who only had 5 months to go in office.

              There is much rightous indignation being expressed by supporters of the coup; a lot of stuff about the defense of their constitution which turned out to be so invioable that they staged a coup to protect it.

              At issue is the call for a non-binding public referendum asking the Honduran people if they wanted to have a public assembly to discuss amending the Honduran constitution.

              Now I think you've got to ask yourself why would the opposition stage a coup against a guy who had 5 months to go in office and wouldn't be involved in the amending (if there was to be any) anyway as he would be long gone from office.

              Ask yourself, if the people didn't want to hold the plebiscite then all they had to do was vote no, right?

              And, if they did want to have a constitutional convention, why not let them?

              The answer I think is that the opposition, powerful military officers, wealthy business interests, and rightist politicians does not want any of their very formidable control over politics and the economy diminished.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#26 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:30 PM EDT
              jameseg

              It is really difficult for me to understand how anyone could support the violent overthrow of a sitting president, especially one who only had 5 months to go in office.

              Regarding the above quote from multifariousone's comment #26:

              Under normal circumstances I would agree with you.

              But, Zelaya seems to have greatly increased his abuses of power in recent months, including proceding ahead with an illegal ballot. He apparently got the ballots printed in Venezuela and then after the illegal ballots were taken and stored, he and a group of people forcibly took the ballots from their stored location to proceed with the illegal ballot. By forcibly taking the ballots as reported in numerous news stories, he seems to have used force first. Given Zelaya's past use of force to get the ballots out of storage, do you think he would have left office peacefully after the Congress, Supreme Court, and law enforcement officials/military sought his removal, or would he have sought for his body guards and friends to keep him in power and precipitated widespread violence?

              There are indications that Zelaya was seeking to make changes to enable him to remain in office, or at least to make sudden and huge unspecified changes in the country and its constitution that other branches of government did not support. Given his decisions in recent months, what might he have done in the remaining months of his term?

              Why was the referendum moved up to June 28 and its wording changed? Would Zelaya have allowed fair counting of the ballots given his usurping of the powers of the other agencies of the government? And, who is to say Zelaya would not hold another referendum before November 29 after moving up the date of this one? Zelaya seemed to be unilaterally trying to run the country almost as a dictator without providing a budget, accountability for spending, or allowing for the balance of powers between the branches of the government.

              Below is a quote from and link to a May 25, 2009 article on the Council on Hemispheric Affairs's website about the effect of the lack of a budget on two agencies involved in the electoral process.

              not yet submitted the national budget to congress for ratification, and this is causing many governmental institutions to feel the pinch. Principally among them are the National Electoral Tribunal and the National Persons Registry, which are two of the agencies that oversee the electoral process in Honduras.

              http://www.coha.org/2009/05/21st-century-socialism-comes-to-the-banana-republic/

              • 4 votes
              #26.1 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:07 AM EDT
              multifariousone

              If Zelaya broke any laws he should have been charged, brought to trial and been given an opportunity to defend himself.

              The coup leaders must have known that they had a very weak case against Zelaya and chose to comit the unlawful act of staging a coup to remove him from power rather than stand on the strength of the arguments in an open court which surely would have received world attention.

              This is a throwback. A coup had not happened in Latin America for 25 years. The coup has been condemend by the U.S., the U.N., the E.U., the OAS, NAM and all of Honduras's neighbors. All those organizations and countries can't all be wrong.

              do you think he would have left office peacefully after the Congress,

              There is absolutly no reason to think he wouldn't have. But if he did, then would have been the time to charge him, try him and give him the opportunity to defend himself. He was not given that opportunity.

              There are indications that Zelaya was seeking to make changes to enable him to remain in office, or at least to make sudden and huge unspecified changes in the country and its constitution that other branches of government did not support. Given his decisions in recent months, what might he have done in the remaining months of his term?

              How could he have done all that in 5 months against the will of the people and without the support of the military?

              From the article. Please read this:

              The Honduran military led effort to discredit Mr. Zelaya has been based upon the farcical notion that President Zelaya was acting extra-constitutionally by calling for a plebiscite which would ask the Honduran people if they wanted to convene an assembly to change the constitution to allow re-election" and that this act in itself was a violation of the Honduran constitution (this is one of the talking points that is well distributed across the internet by what seems to be the organized attempt to disseminate a very well defined and carefully crafted message that is meant to support the justification for the coup d'état).

              Yet the language of the proposed plebiscite was as follows:

              ¿Está de acuerdo que en las elecciones generales de 2009 se instale una cuarta urna en la cual el pueblo decida la convocatoria a una asamblea nacional constituyente? = Sí…….ó………..No.
              Translation:
              "Do you agree with the installation of a fourth ballot box during the 2009 general elections so that the people can decide on the calling of a national constituent assembly? Yes or no."

              There is no language whatsoever regarding an election.

              Further undermining the military's argument, under President Zelaya's proposal the plebiscite would have been set to take place simultaneously with the election of Mr. Zelaya's successor in November. So by the time the plebiscite took place it would be too late for Mr. Zelaya to have the constitution changed and for him run for a second term. In President Zelaya's words "That is completely false. In Honduras we do not have reelections and I never intended to be reelected. That will be a matter for another government, another constitution and another Constituent Assembly. The Popular Consultation is a survey, just like the Gallup one does or other polling groups. It does not create rights. It has no power to impose. It is not obligatory, it's an opinion poll." (This is a quotation taken from a recent interview given by President Zelaya to Juan Gonzales of Democracy Now. The transcript of the entire interview is here: http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/9/in_rare_us_broadcast_ousted_honduran).

              Rightist propaganda has been remarkably uniform in its assertion that the Honduran coup is justified by focusing on the misleading narrow issue of term limits, despite the lack of any statement by Zelaya that would support the claim that his whole intent was to stay in power. In fact President Zalaya has raised the issue of much greater constitutional reform, required reform if Honduras is to join the family of Latin American nations that are today the beneficiaries of 5 decades of Latin American political maturation.

              There is much that is puzzling about what has transpired. At the time of the coup d'état President Zelaya had only seven months of his term remaining and apparently neither of the presidential candidates, one of which would have succeeded him, are leftists.

              President Zelaya had no intentions of convening a national constituent assembly, he was only asking for a referendum to determine if the people supported placing a fourth ballot box in the general elections to determine if they wanted a national assembly convened. The referendum, had it been approved by the voters, would have asked a national constituent assembly to review and create a new Constitution. Creating it would have been under the authority of the National Congress, not the President.

              It is clear that President Zelaya was attempting to wrest a small amount of power from the military and invest it in the private sector. The Honduran military stopped him. They would tolerate no threat to their absolute control over the Honduran polity and economy.

              • 1 vote
              #26.2 - Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:31 AM EDT
              Ix chel

              Only calling for a referendum was against the Supreme Court ruling. He was ordered removed by both the Congress and the Supreme Court.

              Since you half admit he might have broken laws...why the insistence to return him to power instead of insisting he be tried? He really cannot be held in a jail here...there are none adequate to safely hold him and protect his safety. He would be murdered within hours..not days or months...by the people who blame him for their incarceration. He should be held outside of the country until trial...yes he should be tried and yes he should be jailed but there are very apparent reasons for not jailing him here.

              • 3 votes
              #26.3 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:10 AM EDT
              multifariousone

              Since you half admit he might have broken laws...why the insistence to return him to power instead of insisting he be tried?

              Why don't you read my posts instead of just plastering junk here. I have been consistent in calling for fair trials for anyone accused of wrong doing.

              He really cannot be held in a jail here...there are none adequate to safely hold him and protect his safety. He would be murdered within hours..not days or months...by the people who blame him for their incarceration. He should be held outside of the country until trial

              Oh, I see. Now there's a new one.....

              That your country cannot hold a prisoner of his stature without protecting him attests to Honduras's status as a banana republic.

              He should be held outside of the country until trial

              Except there is no one in the world who would hold him for you as the entire world thinks that Honduras acted illegally.

              yes he should be tried and yes he should be jailed but there are very apparent reasons for not jailing him here.

              Huh?

              • 1 vote
              #26.4 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:34 AM EDT
              Ix chel

              Multi,don´t be so sure...most of the world including Hillary and Obama think that Zelaya broke laws and was corrupt...most of the countries only have trouble with the ejection...

              The difference in our prisons is we don´t have a cushy prison existence like the US does..we don´t have solitary either...if you break the law you go to jail with everyone. It is understandably difficult with a country of less than 8 million people to protect someone of his stature in prison. The US has a difficult time protecting police officers who go to jail...are they a banana republic now? How many people are murdered in prisons in the US everyday? Do you even know? Do you know how bad it would look to the world if we just threw him in jail with the gang members and he got killed?

              You just admitted yourself why we ejected him instead of holding him. The world doesn´t matter to us...our laws are what matters not you or anyone else looking from the outside in. Our laws are what is important.

              Did you know he had 300 fictitious employees and was spending 6 million lempiras a month on fictitious employees? He also wore 14,000 dollar suits and had 50 rental cars on the states tab. Does that sound reasonable to you for a president of a country where the poorest people starve two months a year? Does it sound reasonable when he hasn´t paid the municipal employees who earn minimum wage and the teachers in four months?

              Did you know the recent refusal to return to work by the teachers isn´t the teachers at all but Eugenio Chavez...the director threatened them with jail or losing their jobs if they returned to work? Did you know that Zelaya paid him money to do this?

              As I told you I live in San Pedro Sula...you more than once have insulted me for living here and claimed that I am priviledged or part of the recent government. The only person I know is a candidate for presidency. I don´t live in Tegucigalpa the political capital of Honduras and anyone who doesn´t live in the capital is surely not part of the government at the presidential or congressional level.

              Furthermore your attacks on me have been unwarratned since I do not live any ´priveledged´ lifestyle. I live on $600 a month. That is concidered middle class here...where in your mind that turns into priviledged is beyond me. I am a teacher if you must know and my son goes to a public school. I have to give classes under the fear of losing my job at my house now. I was told if I did´t vote on the 28th they would put me in jail by the union leader and was told I had to particpate in their march which I refused to march for a criminal and simply didn´t show so now they are threatening to take my pay. So I do know more about this than you think I do.

              • 3 votes
              #26.5 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:46 PM EDT
              multifariousone

              do you have facts to support any of this? If not it will be deleted.

              Consider yourself forewarned. I am sick of your spamming. I no longer will respond to any of your comments. Please go away.

              • 1 vote
              #26.6 - Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:34 PM EDT
              Dsent

              Washington's efforts to return the ousted president seem 1/2 hearted to me. I think one phone call could resolve this situation but Washington is dragging its feet.

                Reply#27 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:49 PM EDT
                multifariousone

                I think one phone call could resolve this situation

                I think that you misunderstand the complexity of the situation.

                • 1 vote
                #27.1 - Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:53 PM EDT
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